Episode 5 – When to Hire a Copywriter

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An example of an outside copywriter’s content.

About the episode

This episode details the best situations for hiring out your blog content or other copywriting. It also covers our suggestions on when to not hire out this writing.

We show examples of content that was written by different levels of copywriter, from $5-20 articles to $500+ content pieces.

It should help you make the decision on how to best grow your organic traffic through great content.

If you have any questions or comments, use the comment section below.
Also, we’d love to see reviews on iTunes and everywhere else you listen to podcasts.

Tools mentioned:

I Need Articles: https://www.ineedarticles.com
Spin Me Not: https://www.spinmenot.io/
Copyscape: https://www.copyscape.com/



SEO Course: https://www.fuelyourphotos.com/seo-course/

Corey: [00:00:00] All right guys. Welcome to episode five of the SEO for photographers podcast by fuel your photos. I'm Corey and I'm here with Dylan and today we are going to talk to you about hiring a copywriter or outsourcing your writing. Yeah, tell me a fun topic.
[00:00:17] Dylan: [00:00:17] I'm excited for it. I think we, we've both dabbled in the past.
[00:00:20]we have some experience with hiring out writing, and we saw some interesting questions in the. As CEO of course group about when to hire out your copywriting and when not to, and we thought we'd elaborate here.
[00:00:31] Corey: [00:00:31] Yeah. I think it's a timely topic as well with right now we're in the middle of a epidemic.
[00:00:36] Can a lot of people are quarantine and they have lots of time and I feel like it's a good time to be thinking about how can you organize things so that you can outsource them and maximize what you do in a small, small amount of time when you can be focused. And so maybe this will be a good strategy for some of those people.
[00:00:57] Dylan: [00:00:57] Yeah, I sure hope so.
[00:00:59] Corey: [00:00:59] All right. Well, let's start off by talking about, I guess, when to outsource writing. I guess like just kind of in general, what are some good scenarios where you might want to have someone else write for you instead of writing it yourself?
[00:01:13] Dylan: [00:01:13] Totally. So I think the, the first. I think that we thought of is that you should really have had success with blogging, similar types of content on your own before you start trying to hire out the writing or content creation process.
[00:01:28]so maybe you've had success and then you find that there are so many similar opportunities, to do. Content that's similar to what you've already done, but maybe slightly different topics or slightly different like different target cities or niches or something like that, but you just don't have enough time to sit down and research and create that content so you could maybe outline and send it to a writer and they would do the rest.
[00:01:52] Corey: [00:01:52] Let's actually take it a step back. Yeah. When we're talking about copywriting today, I think our primary focus is going to be on content creation and content marketing. We might call it blogging. doesn't have to be blogging, but let's kind of back up and talk about a few different scenarios where you might hire a copywriter cause it's not all just for blogging.
[00:02:13] So what other scenarios have you thought about? We've actually hired a copywriter ourselves. What are some. Yeah. And have general scenarios where you would hire a copywriter.
[00:02:22] Dylan: [00:02:22] I think that the general homepage copy, like you can hire copywriters typically to do a full brand package where they, they handle your homepage, your contact page, your about page a and maybe some sort of page for a specialty or offering that you have.
[00:02:38]and that, that can be a nice way to really. I have somebody that's a professional writer. Think about voice and the nuance of different, like how different copy will affect your branding and how you, how your, your clients value you. So,
[00:02:53] Corey: [00:02:53] and in fact, a lot of copywriters who do that kind of brand writing will also help you through the process of finding your target client or what they might call an ideal customer or client avatar or something like that.
[00:03:06] They'll walk you through their own process for kind of. Getting that out of you and then they'll guide you through what kind of writing or what kind of voice or tone that you want to have to speak to that particular audience.
[00:03:18] Dylan: [00:03:18] Yeah. I've also seen copywriters offer like social media posting. they can do copy for your social media posts or your profiles, stuff like that.
[00:03:26] Corey: [00:03:26] Yeah. And even simple things. I mean, you kind of already said this and it's part of the branding thing, but a lot of times someone just. They just need help writing an about page, something that's about themselves, where it's, they feel too close to it to write it. sometimes that's a situation where you would hire someone, but I think I, like I said here, for the most part, we're going to talk about content creation.
[00:03:45] I guess we could also throw into that mix. what we hired someone for recently was. Writing sales copy for a sales page. Again, we kind of felt really close to that, but this copywriter did help us go through finding who our audience was and what kind of pain points they had. They even went as far as interviewing some of our customers and potential customers and doing research in the market.
[00:04:08] And so that kind of copywriter was really helpful for us because even though we're very close and knew exactly what we thought our audience was looking for, and. What we thought this should look like. Having a professional look at it from the outside gave us an interesting perspective. and I think that was extremely helpful.
[00:04:25] Dylan: [00:04:25] Yeah, I would definitely do that over again. It was amazing. and I would even consider doing that for my photography business, to go through that same process. And maybe. Land on a better, like better landing page copy for my wedding offerings or a pricing guide, have that reworked to really target specific pain points and just issues that I hadn't really thought about.
[00:04:50] Perfectly well for my, my wedding photography.
[00:04:52] Corey: [00:04:52] Yeah. I feel like anytime you're running ads, you know, having a perfect message to market match is going to make your ads extremely effective. And so I think having a copywriter who understands that kind of writing could be very helpful and maybe make your ad campaign or efficient.
[00:05:10] Yeah, totally. Almost. Definitely. Yeah. Great. Well, let's get back to the point here. We're talking about hiring a copywriter for. Kind of your regular content creation for what we probably can refer to here as blogging. so you already mentioned the first thing, which was you need to have had some success doing this on your own.
[00:05:30]taking that a little bit more, like what does that mean. To have success doing
[00:05:34] Dylan: [00:05:34] this. Totally. So I think that it would be, it'd be difficult to go into this process without first doing at least a few of these blog posts, like content strategy, implementation, blog posts with you doing the entire process from start to finish, where you come up with the idea you.
[00:05:55] Build out the outline. You start doing the research, you, you write the actual rough draft and go through the process of editing that rough draft and publishing it, and then seeing how it ranks and seeing how your audience interacts with that, that piece, and then possibly. Looking at the data in search console six months afterwards and seeing how you want to change that.
[00:06:16] Once you have that sort of familiarity with the process, you can start to realize which points you feel comfortable outsourcing and what sort of vendor you want to pick to do those things.
[00:06:27] Corey: [00:06:27] Wow. Dylan, isn't that you just described. Our blogging course. Honestly,
[00:06:32] Dylan: [00:06:32] I know I have some
[00:06:33] Corey: [00:06:33] this episode.
[00:06:35] Dylan: [00:06:35] Exactly. I do have some intimate knowledge about pet blogging process
[00:06:40] Corey: [00:06:40] for sure.
[00:06:40] Yeah. So those of you who don't know, we have a w our package now is called fuel fulfill your business, and it's, our SEO course and our blogging course and, and our blogging course. We do go over all of this kind of thing. Like how do you come up with the idea? How do you make sure that you're picking.
[00:06:57] Topics that are going to win. When you pick the topic, how do you make sure that you're actually including the content for that topic that's going to get it to rank? How do you format it to get featured snippets? All of that stuff is included in our blogging course, and I feel like that really is the foundation that you need before you start to outsource.
[00:07:16] In my mind, I mean, you don't have to take our course right. My mind, you need to have that foundation of what we teach in the course before you outsource it. We also have a blog post that was pretty recent on the fuel, your photos blog that talks about things to consider when hiring an SEO, but in this case, it also applies to hire a copywriter, and one of those things is basically you can't talk to a copywriter and.
[00:07:43] Sound intelligent or be able to ask the right questions if you don't have any idea of what you're doing.
[00:07:50] Dylan: [00:07:50] So yeah, and we'll show some examples later, but I went through this process a few times, when I was doing outside, like SEO for larger companies and sometimes they would have an in house copywriting team or content team doing blog posts.
[00:08:06] Sometimes they would try to outsource, where somebody on that in house team. I contacted a writer and was like, Hey, we need an article. And it would be interesting to see the results from the articles that the writing team, purchased and the articles that I purchased, and we're hiring out to the same writer.
[00:08:23] But depending on how we were picking the topics, the outline we were giving them and the expectations we had, we would get back very much different articles and then they would perform like. Completely different on search. Sounded like. it's, that's kind of where I got a lot of experience on this topic.
[00:08:41] Corey: [00:08:41] Yeah, that's really good point. That's interesting to hear that you hired basically outsource to the same team or the same person. Yeah. But by giving different instructions, you got different results. I've seen the same thing, and I think we'll talk about that a little bit more in a little bit. Yep. Okay.
[00:08:55] So, you, you kind of mentioned this already, but let's take a little bit more into the fact that you said. maybe you see a lot of opportunity to do similar things and don't have time. Do you have any examples of that or like a case where you've done that?
[00:09:10] Dylan: [00:09:10] Yeah, for sure. we can dive into my side a little bit.
[00:09:13]here is a guide I did about big Sur, and I've talked, I've used this example online at quite a few times, but basically what happened is I shot this wedding in big Sur. It's a gorgeous spot. It got featured on, I think it was Stanley pretty or not green wedding shoes. And I ended up shooting quite a few weddings in big Sur because of that.
[00:09:35]over time, instead of ranking on the first page for the target, a big Sarah elopement query, I fell the page two, page three, and I decided to get my ranking back, but I decided to do that. Like mid wedding season last year when I was also doing a lot of SEO work and I didn't have time to just do the posts myself.
[00:09:53] So I pretty much just gave, I need articles.com a quick outline, basically just like, here's a, here's a prompt and let them do all the research. I paid for their extra level of research. and I think I ended up paying about $20 for this article, but it instantly. went to the first page and I, I'm typically positioned three to six, somewhere in there.
[00:10:16] Corey: [00:10:16] That's pretty cool. So basically, I mean, it's, it's hard for us because we're always going to be in this category of people who have tons of ideas and not enough time because we use these tools every day. And that's just how we think as SEOs, like we're always coming up with new topic ideas. I'm just trying to think through like for the average person, like when.
[00:10:39] I guess if you went through our blogging course and you did the first phase, which is basically topic generation, and you came up with 50 or 60 or a hundred topics, you know, a lot of people will ask us, should I write all of these at one time and publish them all at once, or should I like drip them out one a week over the next year?
[00:11:00] And you know, if you're, if you have 60, you probably don't have time to write them all at once. but we often do. Give the advice to get as much published up front as possible. Isn't that typically how you would respond to them?
[00:11:12] Dylan: [00:11:12] Oh, totally. I F I feel like the typical rate that a photographer can create content is not going to lead to any issues with publishing too much at one time.
[00:11:21] And you just want to start the ranking processes quickly as possible.
[00:11:25]Corey: [00:11:25] yeah. Yeah. Cause I mean like if you, if you had, let's say you have 50 topics, let's say that 10 of them are going to be winning topics. Let's say you haven't gone through our course and you don't know how to pick winning topics.
[00:11:36] Sure. And so 10 are going to be pretty decent topics and you publish them over the course of a year, but you know, they're spread out those 10. So you know, one hits kind of early and then, you know, they're spread out over that whole year. But the problem is it also takes. Three to six months often for you to start to get the kind of the peak of where you're going to be ranking and getting traffic maybe even more, could take a whole year.
[00:12:01] Yeah. so if you had a piece of content that was your best piece of content out of that 50, and you had to wait, you know, 10 months before you publish it, and then it takes 10 more months before it starts ranking, well, if you would have published it today, then you'd have a 10 month headstart on getting that traffic.
[00:12:19] Right. And so that's kind of the idea is that. If possible, you should publish as much as you can up front, especially your content that you think is likely to be something that's going to generate traffic.
[00:12:30] Dylan: [00:12:30] Totally agree.
[00:12:32] Corey: [00:12:32] So I guess that's a case where if you did a really good content brainstorming session and you came up with quite a few ideas that you thought.
[00:12:41] We're going to be winners. I mean, like if I did it, I'm sure at any given time I could come up with 10 or 15 ideas in a couple of hours for pretty much any niche. And so like in that case, I'm going to probably only be able to write a couple in a week or something like that. Maybe, you know, we are, yeah.
[00:13:00] It might take me two weeks to write one for sure.
[00:13:03] Dylan: [00:13:03] Yeah, exactly.
[00:13:04] Corey: [00:13:04] I mean, that'd be a great time to hand them off.
[00:13:06] Dylan: [00:13:06] Yeah. We are on one of our live calls with the blogging course. I think it was a month or two back and I was just showing how to do keyword research and kind of go through that topic creation process.
[00:13:19] And I, I can't remember. I think that one was like backyard weddings or something and I, I was like, wow, this is an amazing topic and I probably have. 10 different posts I would do about this if I really wanted to, or one mega huge post. And I was like thinking to myself as we were doing it, man, I should really do this this weekend.
[00:13:35] And Nope, never did. And
[00:13:38] Corey: [00:13:38] there was that same call you had to like the black wedding
[00:13:40] Dylan: [00:13:40] dress. Exactly. It was a big topic. All of the wedding dress related stuff like I could spend, I could spend a week writing that stuff and it would be incredible. I could probably double my site traffic in a month, but didn't do it because I didn't hire it out and it
[00:13:56] Corey: [00:13:56] just didn't get it.
[00:13:56] I'm kind of jumping ahead at work. Sure. It just going all over the place with our little notes here on this one, it doesn't really matter. but. Lost my train of thought. Sorry. No worries. yeah, I was going to say that, you know, it's, I totally lost what I was gonna say. I'm sorry. Yeah.
[00:14:15] Dylan: [00:14:15] Just keep moving on.
[00:14:16] Yeah, sorry. I think the, the other thing we wanted to mention is that you can always hire a writer to do these articles and then get the, get it published, get it ranking, get some of the data in search console to how it's actually performing, and then come back and improve it. Or rewrite it yourself.
[00:14:31] Like I, I definitely did that like a month or so ago on this big Sur post. the article that I got back from the writer was fine. It was ranking really well. It was getting me inquiries, but I, I actually went back and read it and realized that it wasn't the quality that I really wanted to have to be like the first impression for my brand.
[00:14:50] So I. I rewrote it a little bit. I changed up the heading structure. I added this table of contents with the links to each one. just a lot of little optimizations that I really should have probably done from the beginning, but perfection isn't really the goal with a lot of these things. getting something published is going to benefit your business in the long run.
[00:15:10] More than aiming for perfection and not being able to. Ever get anything out the door.
[00:15:15] Corey: [00:15:15] And that's exactly what I was thinking is basically it's a great place to just get a bunch of stuff started and see what's going to win. again, especially if you don't have that experience with what's likely to do well for you, it'd be better off to try to go ahead and put out.
[00:15:33] 10 pieces of content that are decent and then see which one gets any traction and spend your time really optimizing those. Exactly.
[00:15:41] Dylan: [00:15:41] And I mean, we get a lot of questions in the group about different, specialties and locations that don't have that much search volume. Maybe this is a way to just do that keyword research.
[00:15:53] Try all of them and see which ones actually get impressions once they're published.
[00:15:57] Corey: [00:15:57] Yeah. And you know, Dylan has this famous little drawing that he's done. If you're any in any of our groups, you've probably seen it. And, there's, there's often this initial spike and impressions, like right after you publish something.
[00:16:08] And both of us have seen cases where after publishing, even one of these articles that we've had written for, you know, very little, 10, $15. You'll see that the next day or two or three days later. There it is. He's got it on the screen for any of you who get the chance to see this video. the very next day I've seen 999 queries in search console, which is like maxed out.
[00:16:31] So it's possible that you can get so much keyword data in like a couple of days after publishing something that doesn't happen every time, but it's happened at least three or four times to me.
[00:16:41] Dylan: [00:16:41] Yeah. And that's so valuable. Like, yup. Straight to the source.
[00:16:47] Corey: [00:16:47] This one, even today, I was going back in, I was working on an old blog post when from like four years ago or something, and I went into search console and I was looking and I sorted by a number of impressions and I was like, wow.
[00:17:02] The keyword I used, it is one that people search for, but it's nowhere close to the main way that people search for this. Yup. I think the way I was typing it was like how to check your. Google know how to track your Google ranking or something like that. And everyone was typing something like, check your Google ranking instead of track your Google rankings.
[00:17:23] Dylan: [00:17:23] Yeah.
[00:17:23] Corey: [00:17:23] so just like the way that people say things when you can get that data, I mean, my, how to track your Google rank articles still ranked for check your Google rank. And I got those impressions, even though it was on like page five or six.
[00:17:35] Dylan: [00:17:35] Interesting.
[00:17:36] Corey: [00:17:36] But that was enough to say. Okay. Way more impressions for these.
[00:17:40] Check your Google ranks, then track your Google ranks.
[00:17:42] Dylan: [00:17:42] Yup. That's awesome. I'm excited to see how the post performs after you make those changes.
[00:17:47] Corey: [00:17:47] That'll be interesting.
[00:17:49] Dylan: [00:17:49] Well, cool. should we dive into how to actually go about hiring a copywriter?
[00:17:54] Corey: [00:17:54] Yeah. Let's, Let's talk about the levels of copywriters a little bit before we get into that, because that kind of ties into the same time, I guess.
[00:18:01] Totally. there's really three main categories that I think of, and I guess we could start with when we've mentioned already, I need articles. There's other similar things out there. but there could be really cheap and the quality is going to be hit or miss. So. The one we're talking about is I need articles.com you can go to there and there.
[00:18:26] What's the average cost? It's like seven to $15 for like 500 to 800 words or something like that,
[00:18:31] Dylan: [00:18:31] right, exactly. Yeah.
[00:18:34] Corey: [00:18:34] Which I mean, you can imagine for that price, sometimes you're going to get really low quality stuff. Yeah. they have filters and I think you mentioned earlier you paid extra to get like an extra level of research you couldn't like already get five-star writers.
[00:18:48] Exactly.
[00:18:48] Dylan: [00:18:48] Always go for the high end there.
[00:18:50] Corey: [00:18:50] Yeah. I have, the high end is still going to be like 15 or $20 instead of seven or $8. Yeah.
[00:18:56]Dylan: [00:18:56] other, I think the next tier up, the middle tier. They're either actual copywriters, but it's going to be direct with the copywriter that you're interacting with, not through a service.
[00:19:08]I've seen people use college students that might be just looking for some side money and an a hundred dollars to read an article would be amazing for them. So, though they probably have great writing skills, English first language. so you might have like a friend or family member that might be willing to do that.
[00:19:25] Corey: [00:19:25] Yeah. And there's also quite a few people who are, they specialize in something like photography blogs. Right. So they, they, I've seen most of those people do like client work blogs, which probably aren't the best use of your time and money, in my opinion. At least not right now. Yeah. But I've seen a few of those as well.
[00:19:46]who will do these kind of topic based blog posts for photographers and because. They work with photographers and they know the industry, and maybe they'll do like a retainer package where if you do like four blog posts a month, it's a little bit cheaper. Typically you're going to pay anywhere between 75 and $200 per article for that kind of service.
[00:20:07] Yeah. And that's, I mean you, you have some experience too with, with Stocksy, what, what's the arrangement you had, cause that wasn't like. A friend and it wasn't so sure.
[00:20:21] Dylan: [00:20:21] Yeah. It was just a copywriting. I, it was a single person shop and, they did. Just really good copywriting, really well researched.
[00:20:29]and similar to the copywriter that we hired for, fill your photos for the landing page. you could tell them like, what kind of voice and give them examples and, they would, they would really try their best to . Right in a way that made sense for the brand as it currently existed, which is important.
[00:20:47]and I think the, the general rate was somewhere around 60 or $70 an hour, which I think is pretty normal for a decent copywriter. and then. That would roughly come out to a couple hundred dollars for a thousand to 2000
[00:21:04] Corey: [00:21:04] words. Yeah. I think one important thing to note with I need articles is that, you get no revisions.
[00:21:11] Yeah. So if, if you publish, I mean, like you're paying $15, so it's like, if you don't like it, you just basically have someone else write it again. Yeah. but once you get it back, you don't get to communicate with the writer. You don't even know who did it. It's anonymous or whatever. You can rate them and you can add them to your favorites.
[00:21:28] So if you really liked them, you could ask them again, you can even check a box. This has only used people I've marked as my favorite or whatever, but you don't get to communicate with the writer. Whereas in that middle category, you might start to have some re like one revision sometimes, or you can communicate directly with that writer.
[00:21:50] Okay. And then the third category is going to be, like professional copywriter. That's all they do. And you know, they are going to put more effort and energy into one specific post that's going to take a lot of time. Let's say you want to have a guide written, write something that's 5,000 words or something like that.
[00:22:15] That's not something you want to hand off to. Any copywriter, you're going to need them to do tons of research. You're going to need to make sure that they understand the goals that you have, that they can understand any kinds of calls to actions and that you need to work in. And you're gonna need to hire someone who's familiar with that type of writing, with potentially your industry.
[00:22:36] And that can start to get a bit more expensive,
[00:22:39] Dylan: [00:22:39] for sure. I'm thinking, here's a. Okay. Example on the screen right now, that's a, I think it was like 7,000 words or something like that. Wow. It's a really big guide. and I, I literally handed them an outline that was just the headings, and kind of told them, Hey, like, do a couple paragraphs, maybe.
[00:22:58] I can't remember how many words each each heading should have. but they, they did a great job and they, they had like the basics of SEO theory. Like I, I told them that I wanted some links to external sources that should be authoritative. And like. About that, that topic that's like here under fashion photography, they, they linked to the fashion photography, Wikipedia, stuff like that.
[00:23:23] Corey: [00:23:23] What does something like that cost? Ah,
[00:23:25] Dylan: [00:23:25] this was probably four or $500, but it was literally 8,000 words or something. So
[00:23:30] Corey: [00:23:30] yeah, that's not bad. Especially, I mean, that one ranks for all kinds of stuff,
[00:23:35] Dylan: [00:23:35] right? Yeah. It's positioned for, I think, on the rank track. Right? So like position three for this. Types of photography query that HRF says it's 5,300 a month.
[00:23:46]I think for this entire post, H refs has it somewhere around 3,300 a month for total traffic.
[00:23:53] Corey: [00:23:53] Typically we see that double or triple in real in real life for sure. So yeah, so we're talking five or 6,000 clicks from Google. Per month off of one article that costs four or $500.
[00:24:03] Dylan: [00:24:03] Yup. Yeah, and I, I did a content strategy for Stocksy that had about 25 other articles of similar potential that I'm hoping that they, have hired out in written sometime soon.
[00:24:17] That'd be great.
[00:24:18] Corey: [00:24:18] Yeah, sure. Anyway, okay, so I guess we've already started to get into this a little bit, but go, let's go into. What is the process when you decide that you're going to hire someone to write for you? What do you need to do? Exactly?
[00:24:34] Dylan: [00:24:34] Totally. So I usually like worst case scenario, like say you just want to get something published in the next few days.
[00:24:44] You can give them a topic, just give them the title and tell them how many words and let them go for it. Go from there. I don't think you're gonna get the best results, but I've done it. And sometimes it's okay.
[00:24:55] Corey: [00:24:55] Every once in a while you get pleasantly surprised. You're like, what?
[00:24:58] Dylan: [00:24:58] Yeah. Like you.
[00:25:01] Understood what I needed. That's awesome. but I, I think that the best use of your time is going to be creating an outline and doing the basic keyword research and topic research, to build out that outline with other related and similar topics, in a way that's actually going to provide value to the user.
[00:25:18] And if you can give them a, a decently researched outline that should only take you like 15 or 30 minutes to create, I think you're going to get a much better piece of content back. yeah. Do you want to go from there? I guess, revising the, the draft that you give it get back or the finished product you get back from the writer?
[00:25:36] Corey: [00:25:36] Yeah. I mean, I think maybe we could talk just a little bit more about, well, yeah, again, our blogging courses, like we have these documents where we have, what I remember what we call it exactly, but it's basically the content outline. And so, We're looking for things like we're going to do the Google searches, we're going to find the common phrases used.
[00:26:01] We're going to find the common entities mentioned. We're going to find, you know, specific keywords we might want to use or target. Yeah. And the more of that you do, I think the more successful you're going to be. you know, you mentioned if like worst case scenario, you just hand them a. hand them a topic and a word target.
[00:26:20] But I think best case scenario, you're handing them a detailed outline with some specifics on how they should write it or what should be included,
[00:26:30] Dylan: [00:26:30] like to competitors, like to compare and stuff like that.
[00:26:34] Corey: [00:26:34] And I, I think, you know, one of the pro tips that I had written down as a note was to make sure, especially when you're using lower cost, copywriters like I need articles, you're going to make sure they don't have spun content and spun content is basically where they go out and they find a piece of content that exists and they paste it into a piece of software that will try to take the words, deconstruct them, and reconstruct it in a way that is.
[00:27:02] Unique, but still all basically just exactly the same content.
[00:27:08] Dylan: [00:27:08] I was just thinking of. I wish we had an example that we knew was spun,
[00:27:12] Corey: [00:27:12] like definitely spent. That one is definitely not. That's the one I told you. It's like the writer.
[00:27:15] Dylan: [00:27:15] That section got
[00:27:16] Corey: [00:27:16] me. Yep. Yeah, so like with, I need articles, this, he was showing an example here a second ago.
[00:27:22] Dylan did this. Contest last year. We need to do something like this again sometime. Yeah. And it was a who could rank for Asgard wedding photographer. And I made ask our wedding photographer.com which you can go check out by the way. It has these articles on it. All of the articles on this site were written by, I need articles and I think I spent a total of $50 over the course of three days.
[00:27:48] And, Yeah. Had these three articles written, and the interesting thing is he's got search console pulled up right now on just one of these articles. In the past three months, there's been 4,986
[00:28:00] Dylan: [00:28:00] clicks. Yeah. That's unreal. 52,000 impressions, like a 10% click through rate.
[00:28:07] Corey: [00:28:07] Yup. Now it's this one. This particular article is one where, it's, it's about weddings in, in Norse mythology, and white Viking wedding traditions.
[00:28:19] And I did an outline for this one when I handed it off to I need articles. And I said, here are some of the things I want you to mention. I want to make sure you mentioned the type of, attire that they had, which dimension. Like, I don't remember what else was. but I like Googled it basically, and I summarized from.
[00:28:36] Like four or five different articles that I found what I thought would be most important, and I just sent them that. So I knew they weren't going to just copy and paste that they would have to take like pieces from different things that I had already found and it worked well. Another one that I had on this site is the, what was it?
[00:28:53] It's, Will Thor get married who is Thor's wife? And on this one, I wish I still had the instructions that I gave them, but I very specifically told them, this is a joke and it's supposed to be funny. And I was curious to see like on, I need articles, will they get that? And it is actually pretty good.
[00:29:12] Yeah. They like talk about all these random. That they're, they're throwing in jokes and puns and stuff like that. And so it could have been a different writer who got it and they would've not got it at all. They would have tried to be serious and. It's going to be a mixed result
[00:29:27] Dylan: [00:29:27] for sure. but yeah, so we, we, we found this, content checker tool that checks to see if your content spun and we ran some of his Asgard wedding photographer posted through it.
[00:29:38]and this is saying that it's not spun. It's only a 25 or 20% probability that it's been content, which is probably not. you do probably want to check your cheap articles, especially if it's a somewhat common. topic, or if you think that there's a chance that they copied some topic and, and just tried to modify it slightly to get it, to look unique because Google can easily see if content spun and probably won't rank it.
[00:30:05]and so yet, check your articles with this. there's another tool called Copyscape that's been used forever. that's another tool that pretty much does the same thing. So. Yup.
[00:30:17]Corey: [00:30:17] well, I'm trying to think where we are on the notes.
[00:30:20] Dylan: [00:30:20] Yeah.
[00:30:21] Corey: [00:30:21] Talking about how to do this. So we talked about, ah, I need articles.
[00:30:26] I guess that's really important because you know, that's where you need to really know what you're doing before you hire someone. Because if you're working with a second level or third level copywriter, often they're going to have their own process and hopefully. They're going to guide you through it, but it's still important for you to know because there are some copywriters who are great writers.
[00:30:47] Yeah. But they know absolutely nothing about SEO, or they think that they know about SEO or they're following practices from 10 years ago. They're going to tell you, Oh, no, we know. We've got to
[00:30:56] Dylan: [00:30:56] see. Oh, yeah. I mean, there's, there's also, there's even services that. Are offering like explicitly, like they're telling you that this is spun content and that it's fine because you're in a different location.
[00:31:08] Yeah. and that's just not how SEO works anymore.
[00:31:12] Corey: [00:31:12] All right. That one service we saw wasn't even spun gun. It was the same article. Like, is that what you see that here's an article? Everyone who's a member can use it.
[00:31:19] Dylan: [00:31:19] Yeah. It's, it's unreal. But yeah. So don't do that. That is zero value to you and your business.
[00:31:28] Corey: [00:31:28] Yeah.
[00:31:28] Dylan: [00:31:28] cool. I think after that, we mentioned that you can get this content published and then come back when you actually do have time to add your own personal touch to the content. I don't think you've gone back and really touched these articles. Nope.
[00:31:43] Corey: [00:31:43] I know on those
[00:31:44] Dylan: [00:31:44] I did on my Yosemite in big Sur posts on my site.
[00:31:48]both of those that have. I've rewritten a little bit. I've done little SEO tricks, like adding different links to external authority sites. making sure that my table of contents was properly formatted, that my headings were nested properly. That generates the nice site links from Google.
[00:32:06] Corey: [00:32:06] And it's funny cause I'm reading this a little bit as you're scrolling on the screen here, and it's still not your tone.
[00:32:11] Dylan: [00:32:11] No, it's not.
[00:32:13] Corey: [00:32:13] Are you thinking about Yosemite elopement if so, you've chosen a beautiful place. Exactly. Not on whatever talk like that. Yeah.
[00:32:21] Dylan: [00:32:21] Yeah. Like are you determined for a sunrise? You have somebody love me. I don't know. Like the reading's not great, but I literally spent $15 and it jumped, started, or like kickstarted, started my Yosemite in big Sur inquiries that I had been missing for a year or two out of.
[00:32:37] Laziness.
[00:32:38] Corey: [00:32:38] Yeah. I think that a lot of people though, when they hear, say you go back and revise, they're going to try to go back and worry about, does this sound like me? What Dylan saying when he says he revised is that he went back and formatted better olded the title rules and exactly made them the right heading types and put the right kind of links and internal links and things like that.
[00:32:58] Like structural. formatting kind of things.
[00:33:02] Dylan: [00:33:02] And I think I took out a few sentences that were cringy. Yeah. And did that. But, but really like, most people are probably skimming this anyways, and they're looking at what the heading say. They're probably looking for these. different venues that are mentioned, and they're really trying to get to my packages, and see pricing so that that's what really matters in these, I could spend much more time and I could make it all in my voice, and I just, I don't see the, the pay off for that right now.
[00:33:29] So, and
[00:33:30] Corey: [00:33:30] if you go back to the example of, from a blaze on the wedding planners, yeah. this is one that's purely from, I need articles on this case. I actually came up with a list of six wedding planners. There were like people that I knew or that I did a Google search and add it to my list and I just said, here's the list of six people.
[00:33:50] Write one to two sentences. This is about each then intro and outro with, you know, a hundred words or 200 words or something like that. I think I had a target of 500 words total. I think this one literally costs less than $10 slash hour right around there. And, I think I might've gone in and added a paragraph at the end or something.
[00:34:09] It took me 10 minutes max published. It didn't even, I don't think it saved me. Has a photo on it. Does it hurt? Maybe one photo?
[00:34:15] Dylan: [00:34:15] Nope. Zero.
[00:34:17] Corey: [00:34:17] I did have one photo.
[00:34:18] Dylan: [00:34:18] Yeah.
[00:34:19] Corey: [00:34:19] It was like a featured image or something. and. It ranks. Like if you do a Google search right now, see if you'd search for Columbia sea wedding planners or something like that.
[00:34:30] Let's list to see if this comes up. But the point is, it was just something where I was like, you know, I could probably rank for that. There's not very much competition here. I don't really have time to mess with this right now. Look at that numbers. One
[00:34:43] Dylan: [00:34:43] beating, beating WeddingWire, and the knot, because I mean saying your, your contents going to beat this.
[00:34:51] If you do anything like just anything more than that in you're, you're one step up. So
[00:34:59] Corey: [00:34:59] potentially, yeah. I mean, sometimes the directories are really good results, but yeah. Anyway, incognito. Dylan saw me number one there and that's, that was the idea. And I'm like, at this point that I see, okay, this is number one.
[00:35:10] We'll go back and search console. I'm gonna see what this is bringing me. If it's meaningful traffic, what I'm going to do next is. Go back and add my voice to this. I'm going to talk about how I've worked with these wedding planners and I'm gonna talk about my experience with them. What's unique about each one?
[00:35:26] I could easily reach out to at least, okay. It's on this list. There's six, and I think scroll down a little. Let's see. I've actually only worked with three of the six. Three of them are relatively new, and. I could, I could call those people that I've worked with and they would absolutely say, sure, I'll do a quick interview with you.
[00:35:47] I could either record it or go do a video, or I could just do a video of myself. Any of those things like make this an extremely valuable post whenever I'm interviewing the people so that a visitor doesn't have to do that now. Right? So they've already got an idea of what their personality is like and what another expert says they're like, and I'm building in tons of value.
[00:36:08] Totally. Not only with this rank, but now people are going to trust me as an authority, especially if I'm in those videos doing the interviews. This could be an Epic piece of content that builds so much trust in me as an authority in the wedding space.
[00:36:23] Dylan: [00:36:23] Yeah, and I, I mean, I've seen that from my venue guide that's on my site and I wrote that completely myself.
[00:36:30] But the trust I get from people that that used it to find their wedding venue and kickstarted their entire wedding planning process with that. even if they weren't, I mean, I think that in general, they probably like my photography, but they, they saw more value to that wedding posts than anything else when they're in the early days of planning their wedding.
[00:36:49] So, yeah, I've had them mentioned that over and over different people, so it
[00:36:55] Corey: [00:36:55] can be helpful. So here, I'm going to ask you a question. Is this something kind of similar to what someone was asking us in our group recently? Yep. let's say that I'm trying to set up a venue silo. Let's say I want to have like the best wedding venues in Columbia.
[00:37:10]but let's say there's 30 wedding venues, and I'm like, you know what? It's gonna take me six months to be able to write out all the content for all of these wedding venues. Do you think that's an interest, a good opportunity to send that out to a copywriter? And if so, what type of copywriter would you use?
[00:37:29] Dylan: [00:37:29] Yeah, for sure. So first I would do like when I'm doing my keyword research, I would see which of these venues on their own
[00:37:39] Corey: [00:37:39] have.
[00:37:41] Dylan: [00:37:41] A decent amount of, potential traffic so that they're getting searched. There's some volume there, but have lower competition. and so this is going to be finding like the newer venues that might be popular.
[00:37:52]like I, I was talking to a photographer last week in New York area and there was, a new venue that was getting a thousand searches per month, but he was like the fourth person to ever shoot there. So like, that one venue is driving more traffic than anything else on his site. So you want to try to find those opportunities.
[00:38:08] And my, my first theory would be that the overall guide that that best wedding venue guide for the location is going to drive more traffic than all of the individual posts combined. and so I'd spend my Mo, like the majority of my effort getting that guide up. once you have that, And all of those venues are listed on the guide that might be enough to rank for some of the lower competition venues.
[00:38:33]and I would start creating individual blog posts for the high volume venues. I would probably, depending on what you want to do, I'd probably. Be comfortable hiring out all of that writing. If you gave them the basics of what you want from the venue post, that's going to be a, here's their website, here's how many people it fits.
[00:38:56] Here's roughly the budget. Here's the amenities offered. maybe what time of year is best or any, any additional info you want to add? what you can do is then personalize it with the venues that you've actually shot at. Adding a paragraph about shooting there or planning a wedding there or your experience with actually going through the photography process.
[00:39:16] And then obviously if you've shot there, add your photos. but I think 90% of the value is going to be in the overall guide.
[00:39:23] Corey: [00:39:23] Yeah, I agree. I mean, on my site, I have a. Just seven favorite wedding venues would get significantly more traffic than, any of the venues that I've optimized for.
[00:39:34] Dylan: [00:39:34] Yeah, I was going to look at
[00:39:35] Corey: [00:39:35] another site too.
[00:39:36] You've got yours.
[00:39:37] Dylan: [00:39:37] I'm just pulling up my good Mike. I like, I think I mentioned it every episode, but I get 80 times as much traffic to this guide. Then people searching like Portland wedding photographer to my homepage and I rank first page for both. But the, the difference in volume and actual clicks is just unreal.
[00:39:57] And most of these venues, even if I've shot there, I haven't blogged the work cause I'm S I'm like years behind on blogging. so I'm just either linking to, there. Oh, actual website or the few that I have plugged in, I'm into my blog post.
[00:40:14] Corey: [00:40:14] All right, so I've got a case study pulled up here. I'm not going to mention who it is just for privacy sake.
[00:40:20]but it's someone who hired out a copywriter. Well, they technically hired an SEO who hired out a copywriter, and that copywriter did their venue guide. And it pays for every single venue. And then, okay, so the venue guide itself, like, you know, top 20 venues in their city wasn't wrecking at all. So I came along, redid that.
[00:40:47] I actually set up an interview with . This photographer and I said, you're just going to tell me why you liked that venue. What's unique about it, what you've learned by working there? And I just took them through that interview. It took us like 45 minutes and we recorded it, and then I went back and just wrote out basically what they said.
[00:41:05]that started ranking very well. I'm looking at the numbers right now. It is the number one page driving traffic to their site by a factor of like 2.5 techs beating out the next highest performing page. So it's, the venue page itself is getting 2,500 clicks over three months. Nice. the next highest is 1100 or so.
[00:41:25] Dylan: [00:41:25] Yeah. Wow.
[00:41:26]Corey: [00:41:26] and then. That being said, I'm looking at the other pages. So in the top 10 pages on their site, other, so there's the homepage and one other
[00:41:40] Dylan: [00:41:40] page,
[00:41:42] Corey: [00:41:42] and then everything else is a venue page or that venue guide. So there's seven venue pages that they had just. Written by some random copywriter that are driving traffic.
[00:41:52]the lowest one is 88 clicks over three months, and the highest one is 256 clicks over three months. So we're talking about 10 times smaller than the venue guide itself. Yeah. But still, if you add seven together, it's probably around a thousand
[00:42:08] Dylan: [00:42:08] clicks. Not bad.
[00:42:10] Corey: [00:42:10] Her mind or not per month. so 300 300 400 clicks per month.
[00:42:13] Dylan: [00:42:13] Yeah. Do you have an estimate on how much they paid for those and you guides, was it probably $20 each or was it more,
[00:42:20] Corey: [00:42:20] it's probably what the SEO paid. Yeah. Yeah. They probably paid that SEO way too much. Yes. but yeah, these are, these are, I need articles, level quality. They're probably the lower than that, to be honest with you.
[00:42:32] They're really bad. but now we see like, right, we've got this list and we know, okay, this was driving two 56. This one's one 67. This one's one 21. Yup. Those three. Let's start with those and let's go back and for sure rewrite them.
[00:42:47] And
[00:42:47] Dylan: [00:42:47] you might see. Keywords that have high volume that you're not breaking as well as you could, that you might not, not even include in the original post.
[00:42:55]like it might, I noticed one for Yosemite was like everybody wanted to see a little bit packages and so I added my package information based on that.
[00:43:03] Corey: [00:43:03] Yup, exactly. I mean, in this case, my argument for going ahead and hiring something like I need articles to just get them out, is that. It's like we said earlier, it's better to get a bunch of content out now and see what's gonna work.
[00:43:17] Yup. My argument against it is that you can't have situations like what they were having, where their venue guide itself wasn't ranking at all, and it's because of quality. It was terrible quality to the point where it was saying things like, have you always know or did you dream of getting married in a castle as a little girl?
[00:43:38] Like that kind of stuff. You know, it's super cheesy. Like. Didn't fit their brand at all and stuff like that. I mean, mixed. If you, if you make something where Google sees it and they're like, okay, this is copied, or this is completely irrelevant, or whatever, it could mean, Google's going to basically pass it by, right?
[00:43:59] They're not going to rank it at all.
[00:44:00] Dylan: [00:44:00] I mean, so much of the internet is not indexed by Google, and I would have to think that the majority kind of reads at that level where it's. Probably written by a computer. like there, there, there are these, machine learning writing tools that I've messed with years ago, and it sounds a lot like that where you just give it a topic or a sentence and it writes an article and it just, if a human reads it, they're like, this is not real.
[00:44:26] Corey: [00:44:26] Yeah,
[00:44:27] Dylan: [00:44:27] exactly. So you don't want that on your site.
[00:44:30] Corey: [00:44:30] Yeah. Don't get, don't publish it. If it's so bad that. You would be embarrassed for someone to read it like it, like on the screen right now, if anyone watches the video version, if there's a video version of this. Yeah. You can see like the wedding planner article that I had.
[00:44:42] I mean, it's not good, but it's also not terrible cringe.
[00:44:47] Dylan: [00:44:47] Yeah,
[00:44:48] Corey: [00:44:48] right. I mean, there's plenty of, wedding is a complicated job that involves a lot of stress and time. Also, the average engagement runs up to a year and six up to a year. A year up to 16 months. So the process of planning a wedding runs a long time too.
[00:45:00] Yeah. All of this means that it makes sense to at least consider possibly hiring a wedding planner professional to help you out. That's fine. It's fine. It's true. You can tell they're stretching it
[00:45:08] Dylan: [00:45:08] like they wanted that word count. Exactly. Yeah. So yeah, I wouldn't, yeah, I would just watch the quality. I think if it's your first in depth content piece for your site, go through the process manually.
[00:45:21]spend a weekend writing or a week writing and. Make sure that you have this whole process nailed from start to finish, from, from content ideation to research, to outlining, to writing, before you start hiring out any pieces of that.
[00:45:36] Corey: [00:45:36] You know, I was thinking, I've been plugging our course a couple of times here, but we also have that YouTube video that's, yeah.
[00:45:42] Dylan: [00:45:42] Oh, totally.
[00:45:43] Corey: [00:45:43] Yeah. That's talking about blogging in 2020. We basically go over the outline of our course in that video for so. Yeah, check that out. If nothing else,
[00:45:53]Dylan: [00:45:53] we'll link that in the show notes and, yeah. Outside of that, if your topic is going to rely super heavily on your personal expertise, maybe that's not the time to hire it out.
[00:46:03] So one thing I don't like about my Yosemite article is I've actually shot in Yosemite and I know that the permitting process, I know how long and how strenuous each hike is to get to each spot. and I, I know some of the vendors personally, so. If I write the article, it's going to be a much different experience for the client reading it than if I hired out to a writer that's never been to Yosemite and is just doing Google searches and doesn't really know the topic.
[00:46:28] Well, they're not photographers. They don't go to weddings every weekend. so that, that's something you need to weigh is how, how necessary is your actual personal expertise.
[00:46:38] Corey: [00:46:38] Yeah. I guess something else to think about here is. Even if you hired someone, even if it's a low quality content writer and you get out 10 pieces of content and you figure out which ones are gonna rank.
[00:46:48] Yeah, it could be that you find it ranks, you get traffic and nothing happens. No conversions, no contact forms. No, everyone just bounces. Right? That might be a good time to go back in yourself and like what Dylan saying, maybe it wasn't helpful enough. Maybe it didn't have the. Exact kind of thing they were looking for.
[00:47:07] Maybe it didn't build enough trust in you as someone who should be their photographer. I don't know. I feel like it's, it's easy sometimes for us as SEOs to like, Oh, you could do this to rank. Yeah. Sometimes we forget or not we all forget, but we just don't think about it every moment. You also need to make sure that it's going to be what converts
[00:47:29] Dylan: [00:47:29] completely.
[00:47:30] Yeah. Never lose sight of the, the actual end. A goal, which is getting people to send you a message that they want to hire you. Yeah. Yeah. outside of that, I think if you're. If your aim is to become an authority on the topic and in the industry, it's probably important that you actually do this writing yourself.
[00:47:48]if you're doing it like a gear review about a, like a camera and you want to be known in the liker world for your thoughts on that subject, you're probably gonna have to do that writing. if you hired out somebody that doesn't know about cameras, I've tried this in the past just to see what would happen and it doesn't read well.
[00:48:05]I have like a cycling affiliate site that I'm trying to just mess around with some, affiliate SEO where I, write about reviews on different bikes that I've never written or done anything like that on. And I hired out some cheap articles and they're ranking really, really well, but I'm not seeing any affiliate revenue.
[00:48:24] So that's time for me to reconsider the strategy, actually look at renting or buying these bikes. And actually. Doing the reviews myself. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. I guess that's it for today. this podcast is going to be available on all of the major platforms where now on Google, Amazon, or not, Amazon, Google, iTunes, Stitcher,
[00:48:48] Corey: [00:48:48] Spotify,
[00:48:48] Dylan: [00:48:48] Spotify, overcast, all of those.
[00:48:50] Please give us a five star rating if you would like a subscribe. I think we are going to throw this up on Patrion. We'll, we'll test that out. we'll throw these little bonus videos up on Patrion for now.
[00:49:03]Corey: [00:49:03] yeah. And also just check out the website. We have the podcasts on the website. Was it photos.com/podcast or podcasts, which probably both of those.
[00:49:11] Dylan: [00:49:11] Yeah, it's singular.
[00:49:12] Corey: [00:49:12] Yeah. Singular. And then, that'll take you to the episode. menus or whatever, and then you can go to each episode there. I have the transcript, but also right there as a great place for you to leave comments. That's probably the easiest way to interact with those, on this podcast at the moment, because it's just an easy forum, Phil, you know, type your message and we can respond right there.
[00:49:35] Dylan: [00:49:35] Yeah, we'd really appreciate it. and feel free to ask us questions that you want to see in future episodes. ask us questions about the episode and we'll . We'll be sure to answer. All right. I
[00:49:45] Corey: [00:49:45] guess that's it for today. We'll see you next time.
[00:49:47] Dylan: [00:49:47] All right. Thank you so much.

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