Our first interview episode of the podcast is live now, and it may be the best episode yet!
In this episode, we talk to Nina Larsen Reed about her success with SEO, and specifically dig into her thinking about cornerstone content.
We talk about her venue guides, and not only the significant traffic that they drive, but how she used them to build real-life relationships with venue directors (and ended up on several preferred vendor lists).
If you want to get a real look at how SEO pairs with smart business… this episode is for you!
Corey: Hello and welcome to the SEO for photographers podcast. Today is a special episode. It's episode 11 and it is our first guest interview episode. So today, Dylan and Corey as usual, but we also have special guests, Nina here, to talk about some really cool things pop up. I think a lot of you are going to love, especially if you're wedding photographer, but even if you're not.
There's going to be some really valuable lessons that you can learn from this episode. Nina has been, someone we've been talking to and hanging out with for a long time. Now she's in our course and we've got to know her really well through that. And all of the not, she has asked some great questions, but also has given back a lot of really valuable insight on what she's tried and what's working for her.
And so we've really appreciated that over the past year or so. and you know, really, really excited to have you here today. Sweet. All right. Well, why don't we just jump right in. We've got some questions about SEO in general, and then some questions that go into a specific topic we'll talk about today.
But before we do that, Nina, tell us a little bit about yourself and your business and what you do.
Nina: Yeah. So I, am a wedding photographer based in Boulder, Colorado. I have been doing weddings since, 2017, which is not that long in the grand scheme of things. but I. had a separate photography business before I started doing weddings.
And I've also been building my own websites on WordPress since high school. So all the way back in like 2006, I started playing around with that. and so I always knew when I wanted to start doing weddings that, getting a solid website going, what's going to be key to actually making it in this business.
and you know, it's paid off, so. Nice.
Corey: So w when you were working on websites in high school, what kinds of websites were you building then?
Nina: Oh, really basic, simple personal blogs where I posted, you know what, I had cooked for dinner that day and a pretty close up photo of a flower and stuff like that.
you know, not, nothing particularly interesting. but then
Corey: I don't think I was cooking dinner in high school, so
Nina: no, it's a Norway thing. Yes. but yeah. And then when I moved to the U S in 2010, I moved here as an all pair, which is kind of like an exchange program where you nanny and live with a family and everything.
And so I actually started this blog network of Scandinavian, all Paris. We're all living in the U S cause there were a lot of people back in our home countries who, you know, want to just. See what that experience was like. so that got me some good practice too, on just, you know, posting consistent content and trying to figure out what the hell I was doing with assignment, all of it.
Corey: it's those websites,
Nina: you know, I, was not very smart about it at the time, and so I don't have a single one of them. I think I have a few of like, you know, WordPress. Word files with old blog posts and stuff like that. But I unfortunately never kept any of the sites as I dropped each project. which is a shame because those would have been fun to have now, but
Corey: we will have to look them up on the way back.
Nina: There's some good stuff there. and so I actually also went through a period when I was at university here at CU Boulder, where I was a book blogger. And so I did, you know, book reviews and that type of stuff. Or like authors would send me their books for free and I would review them.
And. so yeah, like no matter what I've been doing, I've always had it centered around my websites and I just, you know, love thinking of it as my own little space on the web, whatever the business actually is. that's been really cool. That's cool.
Corey: So, on your current website, do you want to or do you want to give us a little bit of a history on what
Nina: theme you've used?
What page builder, like where you're at now? Yes. so after, so I have used Devi as my main theme builder, all the way since 2013, up until when you guys started giving me enough shit for it. and so, I actually just about a month ago. Spent a whole weekend completely rebuilding my website, on Astro theme with Elementor as the page builder.
And, that was quite the pain to get, you know, 200 posts worth of stuff, moved over and cleaned up and all of that. but it's incredible how. Like once it's done, you're just so relieved about it and you're finally ready to focus on all the other things. And instead of like trying to fight for every, like 10th of a second of page speed, you know, like again, back two seconds right away and got to actually focus on the content portion instead of just the technical.
So that's amazing.
Corey: Yeah. And you also worked towards trying to use Gutenberg or the WordPress block editor as much as possible. Are you using it on all of your posts now exclusively, or is there an element or templates still being used? How does that work?
Nina: Yeah, so I have, at that, that's the next big thing I'm working on.
you know, cause my main thing was just getting off of Debbie as soon as possible. and now I'm really trying to figure out how to get my individual posts and Peretti. and you know, I. I'm trying to just strip down a lot of the design elements in general, because, you know, even the feedback I get from couples who contact me after landing on my website is that they love the resources and help on there.
No one's really ever commenting about the design. Like that's not what people are looking for. You know, they see the photos and they see that you have useful resources and they couldn't really care less what the background looks like or what graphic elements you're using and stuff like that. so yeah, that, that's.
One of the many goals I have on my list for the summer is just trying to strip it down even
Corey: more. Nice. so what about, what would you say in general, from an SEO perspective is the most successful tactic that you've used? Or maybe even if you have more than one. What has really worked for you from an SEO perspective?
Nina: I mean, the focusing on major cornerstone content instead of just, you know, when I first started in 2017, the advice I was given was like, you know, write 300 words about every single wedding you shoot and just stuff, the key keyword in there as many times as you can. And maybe it will ring for something.
And I would hope that your listeners will know better than that by now. and. Yeah. So like the, once I started focusing on, you know, content that drives major search traffic, not just for wedding photography, but specifically for venue guides and location guides. that's definitely paid off more than anything else.
And especially because of the way I've been able to combine that with. In person networking and relationship building with these venues and vendors too, and not just focusing on the Google traffic portion of
Corey: things. Yes, and we're going to dig into that here in just a few minutes. That's the, that's the gold nugget of this conversation, I hope.
Nina: Yes. Do you have
Corey: any SEO tactics that you've tried that have either not worked at all or just like tanked your site or hurt her pages.
Nina: Yeah, I mean, I, you know, because I started in 2017 when the advice out there was still pretty bad. you know, I've gone through multiple rounds of having to go back and remove a lot of old shitty posts and, you know, get rid of that.
And, you know, every time I've done that, I've taken maybe a month or two of traffic hits, but it's always rebounded and come back stronger than it was. Before. so I really wish I hadn't, you know, done all the mistake first and then had to correct for them. Of course, I wish I'd done it right the first time.
but I mean, I think like as long as you're constantly learning and improving and trying new things and seeing what works and using actual numbers to analyze and seeing, you know, not just what you feel is working, but what do the numbers tell you? then there's really not anything that you could do wrong, cause at least you're learning something.
So that's a good point.
Corey: Yeah, and I feel like that's one of the things I like to remember is that I learned a lot of what I know about SEO right now by doing all of the wrong things on my own site. And then like figuring out that didn't work and re researching and studying and trying to figure out what
Nina: did work.
Exactly. but yeah, and other than that, I would just say like, having too many damn posts about the same venues. You know, cause when you shoot at the same place over and over again like that, that's probably where I've wasted the most time is like trying to optimize different posts when, you know, I now know that it's much more useful to actually have one page that focuses on that venue and not.
Not trying to do all the different things.
Corey: So would you say that you've cleaned that up pretty well on your site
Nina: right now? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've gone from, you know, standard like 200, 250 posts published. I think I'm down to like 84 or something like that now. and I do still have a handful of old ones that I still have to clean up, but they just, they're not big enough traffic things that they've been worth focusing on for now.
but I definitely still have things that could clean up even more on that.
Corey: Dylan. I think this is something that we need to look at a little bit more later. So before the call, Dylan and I were chatting a little bit and. We're thinking about this most recent algorithm updates. So for those of you who might not follow along as closely as we do, there's a huge algorithm update on may the fourth or fifth that was just really shaking things up more than normal.
Like this is one of the normal, like monthly. Core algorithm updates we see pretty regularly now, but for the most part, our sites are relatively stable. Typically these impact like specific niches or there's like some specific thing that they're kind of trying to round out a little bit, but this time things just shook up a lot for a lot of the sites that we look at.
And Nina's site is actually one that improved quite drastically with this algorithm update. And. Now that she's talking about this, you know, I've been saying here for the past month or two that I'm seeing more and more cases where. Keyword cannibalization or just competing content and low quality content is hurting sites way more than it has in the past.
And so I wonder if potentially that's even a factor that's contributing here is that the quality score across all the pages, the index pages is significantly higher for site like Nina's. Cause even like on our site, I'm thinking like of the filler photo site, there's, there was a down trend on some of the posts there and across the board.
There's some low quality content that's still on that domain that could be cleaned up. So anyway, just the thought could be a signal that we need to look at. And a lot of times I'm telling people over and over like, you need to clean this up, even if it's not causing a problem for you right now, because one day there's going to be an algorithm update and it's going to cause a problem for you.
And so this could be, I'm not saying definitely, but it could. Well, I would just sound like Trump. That's like a factor that contributes
Nina: well, but I think overall too, you know, when you, when you look at the actual traffic of like what, what posts and pages on my website are actually contributing to bringing real people onto my website, it is five to 10 different posts.
That are driving 80% of the traffic and the more of those small posts where you know, I might get five clicks in three months, that's not really doing anything for me. And even if that might be ranking for an individual venue, it is probably ranking really far down in the listings. You're unlikely to have people click on it and it's not really doing much for me.
So I'm trying to work on more ways of like, well. If I, if I am ranking slightly for that venue, how can I build that into an overall larger venue page that would actually show up higher and still get me the same keywords but also contribute to other parts of, you know, other keywords that are related and
Corey: yeah, exactly.
That's awesome. Yep. So out of those top pages that are driving traffic, are the majority of those
Nina: your venue guides that you've created. Yes. Yeah. So the number two is my Boulder wedding venues, and that's just park wedding venues. and actually, no, I think the biggest one now is beyond my Colorado local guide.
cause that one has suddenly after the algorithm been ranking, number one for both a lope in Colorado and Colorado elopement, which feels. Really cool. So
Corey: that is awesome.
Nina: That's the best. but yeah, so beyond that, why, you know, being such a big one for the topic of eloping here, everything else is venue guides, engagement session locations, specific venues, things like that.
Corey: Yeah. I'm seeing, looking at your top pages. it's interesting because you have not only. The venue guides, like the bigger venue guys that round up all the venues, but also a couple of specific locations or venues that are doing extremely well for you. Rocky mountain national park or the sunrise amphitheater for example, are more specific.
I mean, Rocky Mount national park is larger. It's not like one venue, but it is a specific area. so that's really interesting that you have kind of both of those. A lot of times what we'll see is that the, the venue Roundup will drive like 10 times more traffic than any specific venue. Whereas in this case, we're seeing that those specific venues sometimes are right there in the same amount of traffic as the.
Nina: Yeah, and even beyond the traffic, like that sunrise amphitheater guide, for instance, like that's probably my favorite of the outdoor ceremony sites here in Boulder, and it's a public venue, so everyone knows of it. It's the type of place where people hike up to when it's not in use for weddings and stuff like that.
And. I knew like when I started shooting weddings here in Boulder that I really wanted to show up in rankings for that. And I didn't have any photos there. I hadn't shopped there yet. And so I set up a style shoot with a local planner and we got photos up there and I blogged it and you know, it started ranking immediately cause there was very little.
Else of content that was that thorough and actually talked about, you know, what time of day should you rent this venue and how exactly do you rent it? What's the process? Where can you go for photos around it? What menus can you combine it with? You know, and it ends up going so much deeper than just like, here's 300 fluffy words spot.
What a beautiful wedding this was. And like, I easily get, You know, 10 to 20 leads a year directly just off of that event, YouTube, because people found that guide and they're like, Oh, well you already told me what time I should have booked my ceremony for, can we just book you to now cause this, you made this easy.
Corey: yeah, that's, that sounds like an amazing ROI on that
Nina: stylist. Yup.
Corey: Cool. So what's, talk a little bit more about this whole idea of a venue Roundup. this is something that, you know, we're trying to teach more wedding photographers that they should be doing. And even if there's already someone in your area who's doing a pretty good job of this, often what we're seeing is that.
They're still kind of half-baked, not necessarily like Dylan's style where it's like, I'm just going to throw up here. And he's like, even taking that to the extreme on another little test like that we're running right now. So like literally headings and then Latin as the subsections and we're trying to see if you can get that to rank.
But anyway, what I'm saying is that a lot of people are just, maybe they're new to the idea and they just kind of like threw something up quickly or. They're not really thinking about searcher intent and they just kind of put something up. It's got a list, and sometimes that stuff still works well, but I think there's just so much depth that can go into these things.
And you know, you've really taken this to the next level by putting in like significant effort above what most people would be willing to do. I think that's really what it takes. So I want to hear more about like some of the extra steps that you've taken and we'll try to, we'll include. at least, you know, one or two of these venue guides that Nina has in the show notes, so you can check it out and just kind of walk us through the process of like what you were thinking when you created one of these.
Let's just talk about like the SS park or the Boulder wedding guide. Like what, what the process looks like from you. Set that up.
Nina: Yeah. So I'll, I'll start with a Boulder one since that's where I first started too. But, you know, living here in Boulder, I knew I really wanted to shoot more locally too. and, You mentioned user intent there, and I think that's the important one because when someone's searching for Boulder wedding venues, they're not looking for one specific venue most likely there. They want to see a whole list of like what is every single option in town? And traditionally the top results you'll see is the knot and wedding wire and you know, pages like that.
But. They're not even very useful to the user because you end up having a paid sponsored listings from other counties than everything going into the same page. And they're hard to search by and you know, it's whoever pays. Most gets to be on top. And, so I tried to think about it from that perspective of like, if I was looking for wedding venue and I just wanted to see a damn list already, you know, and, so I reached out to every single wedding venue in Boulder County, which took some time just to even gather that spreadsheet of like, what venues are out here.
Corey: what was that process like.
Nina: Well, I mean, it was a lot of Googling and, you know, actually going through all of the knots and wedding wire and these type of listings myself, but also searching for things like, you know, even rehearsal dinner spaces and private birthday party rental spaces and things that didn't even show up for wedding venues.
And, so I put together a massive list like that. And, Wrote up an email template, where, you know, for most of these venues, this was the equivalent of me cold calling them. Like, I had only shot at a handful of these before. And, you know, I emailed every single venue telling them like, Hey, I'm working on this massive project for my website where I want to build a guide of every single wedding venue in Boulder County, and I want to make sure you're not left out.
You know? And I think that type of thing. Way of presenting it. Everyone's like, well, why would we not want to be listed in this? You're not asking for money and you want to promote me for free. Like, of course we're interested. and so it's around 35 or so venues total in the County. And out of those, I think they're two venues I never heard back from.
And that was like the country club and, you know, something else that considers themselves, yeah. you know, a couple of hotels, that wanted me to pay them for. Promoting them, which didn't make sense. And so they don't get a photo on there. but yeah, and you know. I think remembering that venues, like people are so afraid of reaching out to venues they don't already have a relationship with, but you have to remember that like the venue coordinators are also just people trying to do their job and you're offering to make their job easier by promoting them.
and so I think just like trying to take some of that fear out of, of like, Oh, but they don't know my name already. I haven't shopped there before. Like, what do I have to offer? And think about like. You're driving traffic to these venues. And I saw, especially the smaller venues that you know, aren't paying for featured listings, Selma nod or any of those things, they were so grateful to have someone even pay attention to them.
and so I think one thing that was important is that instead of just, you know, asking these venues like, Hey, can you write up a paragraph about your own venue and send it to me? I offered a flight. When can I come out for 15 to 30 minutes and just walk through your venue and take photos of it. you don't have to set up tables or decorated or anything like that.
I just want to have some photos that I can use to show couples, like what this venue looks like, and then I want to send them to your own website so that they actually book a tour with you. and you know, I, yeah. In any of the venues that responded, they were all very happy to let me come out and just to do a little walk through and.
I think that's the effort that will pay off the most for most photographers because by showing up to the venue, I'm able to ask the coordinator, if you will, tell me what you do up here, like, what's your ideal size for this? you know, do you have specific type of weddings? Do you love doing. just really, you know, asking how I can help them and who they're trying to work with.
And it allowed me to write something much more personalized for each venue instead of just having a generic description about each. And, I think couples can tell that when they're scrolling through a list like this too, whether you just copy pasted off of the venue website or if you actually have personal experience with it.
And. It's one thing to round up the venues and you know, again, using the Dylan example of just throwing in the title of the venue name and not even writing about it, like that might work for showing up on Google, but the couples who find that post might not necessarily be interested in you as a photographer unless you can show that you have experienced with the venue.
And yeah, it's been kind of cool just to see if like no one's ever asking me any more of like, well, have you shot at this venue before? Can you show us a full gallery? It's like, no, you've seen it on my venue. I have photos I've taken. Of course, I know that about you.
Corey: Yeah. That's really cool. I think that's really an interesting point to make about you having unique content, not copying and pasting from the venue sites.
Google really loves. Unique content, and I don't wanna make that sound a little cliche, like duplicate content is bad like that. Not that kind of loves unique content, but the idea is if you look at. Sites like the knot and wedding wire, and a lot of these other Roundup sites or directory sites, the bios that these places use are the exact same across all of their listings, right?
They just copy and paste it when they set these up and you can't blame them. I mean, I've done that for my photography business when I was doing that. You know, like you have. 30 different citations you want to set up. You're not going to write 30 different unique paragraphs, like all the same at some point.
But whenever you have a third party who is not necessarily biased by, you know, financial gain or whatever, they write a real. Review and rounded up that way. Google can see that this doesn't appear anywhere else, but it is relevant to the context of the page. So that really goes a long way, in my opinion.
That's, that's gold. And I did this for someone as well. They had, a venue guide that was basically all just fluff and it was a list. And then like a paragraph that was all like. When you were a little girl, did you dream of blah, blah, blah? And so like we rewrote that, I interviewed the photographer and asked their experience exactly what you're saying, like you've been here before.
So tell me in two sentences, what is unique about this place? Or why would someone want to get married here or not want to get married here? Tell me those things. And then we just rounded that up into a simple paragraph or two under each venue thing just skyrocketed at Google rankings whenever we did that.
Nina: Yeah. And I, and I've tried to do the opposite approach to where like I have a blog post about my favorite florist in Colorado. And for that one I did ask each florist if they could just send me a paragraph or two about themselves. Cause like I can talk about venues and make them all sound different. I have a very hard time talking about them.
Flowers and knowing what that, you know, what makes this floor is different from someone else. and so I just ask them to send me a paragraph or two, but many of them clearly copy pasted something from their website that post does not ranking nearly as well as the venue stuff. and I mean, I understand that too, cause you know, it's a different type of content and everything, but, but I have it on my list to go through and update that so that the content is actually more interesting and original and not just what's already appears on their own websites.
Corey: I don't know. A hundred percent related, and this is just a theory, but I've worked on about five or six different florist guides on photography sites, and none of them have ranked well. And so I'm wondering if there's like some sort of like, if Google thinks that we're too close, like if we're almost in the same market or niche.
yeah. Yeah, I don't know. It's interesting. We tried that. Yeah.
Nina: Well, and I mean that, that one I mostly have on my website as a way to get people to book florists. I like, anyway, so I don't really care if it's driving traffic or not. but yeah, no, and I think, you know, for the venue guides too, I think one of the cool things that happened with it was.
getting to walk through a lot of these venues and talk directly to the coordinators. And, you know, for smaller owner, smaller venues, the coordinator is often the property owner even. And I had, out of that first round of like 30 or so venues I photograph last spring, I had seven different venues instantly added me to their preferred vendor list.
And I haven't even shot weddings. They're like, I showed up and I did. 15 minutes of just walking through the venue in the middle of the day with kind of shed lighting and all of this, and just took some photos and sent them after and they're all like, cool, you're on our list now. Exactly how little first that was.
The payoff is amazing.
Corey: They little effort though. It's still, yeah, it was a big undertaking to even come up with the list and then email these people. I have a question for you. How did you find the email addresses for the appropriate person that email for these venues?
Nina: That, I mean, just digging through their websites.
so one of my many past jobs before I was a photographer, was actually basically being a professional Googler where my job was, at a call center where people would call in with anything from like. Hey, can you see if my train is departing on time? So can you help me find a recipe for this thing?
Or, you know, I'm trying to dig up someone's address in a foreign country. so the, the digging portion of that is, took some work. But honestly, it also just made me be able to tell the venues of like, Hey, you made it real hard to contact you. You should do something about that. Yeah.
Corey: I think that's a, that's a pro tip.
For this podcast to take takeaway here. If you become really good at searching on Google yourself, you'll really start to have a more intimate knowledge of searcher intent, like you're going to have that become more of an instinct. It's funny because just the other day in the course group, Nina came in and posted something and I, I commented kind of as a joke, but also being serious.
I was like, look at Nina with that expertise on searcher intent and also her trivia knowledge.
Nina: No, but that's. I dunno. I've always been like actually fun example of that. after my first date with my now husband, I, we only know each other's first names cause you know, it was a date and you just don't really ask about a last name right away.
And he was like, well, I'm invisible to find online. I bet you can't find me. I'm like, well, challenge accepted. And, knowing his first name and approximate age range, and being in Boulder, I was able to find him off of like an old 10 K street records of like running, running the Boulder Boulder and just like completely hunt him down off of that.
And he somehow still married me. So, but yeah, I know, I, I, but I think that's where, With, you know, when you're trying to do something like a venue guide, it's not enough to have it be this shallow just list of things. You have to think about how is this helpful for a real person? And you know, when someone uses your website as the way to find their wedding venue, you're the first person they think about when they need a photographer.
And what's also been super cool is that a lot of these venues have been able to get back to me and be like, Oh my gosh, we just booked a couple who said they found us on your website. And that earns credit dues. So
Corey: are you, you might be like Dylan and you have a venue on your venue guide and they call you up and they're like, will you please stop sending us people?
We're getting too many inquiries.
Nina: The weirdest, weirdest
Corey: voicemail I've ever received in my
Corey: a clip of that voicemail in this podcast. Edit it in.
Corey: So we want to talk a little bit more about the, like the venue guides for a second here. Do you have, well, actually before we go there, I thought it was an interesting observation. Looking at your search console that you have an SS park venue guide and then a Boulder venue guide, and.
You know, Boulder, you were even saying like everything in the County, it's a large area. I mean, even with me, it's not a huge city or anything. I think I looked
Nina: at a hundred thousand
Corey: yet a hundred thousand or so, but that's this park as far as population was like five or 6,000. It's like a,
Nina: yeah. But as this park is, you know, one of the number one places people search when they're traveling to Colorado, cause they're all coming to Rocky mountain national park.
And that means you have to stay in us to spark. And so it's probably one of the top three as far as, destination wedding. Places in Colorado.
Corey: Yeah. I thought that was just really interesting because as far as the competition level, it's actually a little bit lower from what I was seeing. But it's crazy because it gets more search volume, so it's just one of those things where you don't always find these.
Unique opportunities and you found several of them. And I think part of it comes from just the fact that you're covering everything and sometimes you'll get a little bit lucky and one of those will pop, but also you're paying attention to what people are looking for, how they're searching for wedding venues in Colorado.
Colorado is a tricky. Place to optimize for, because if you look at like search volume across the state, you get a lot of statewide searches of Colorado, wedding photographer, Colorado, wedding venues, whatever, and then you have these specific areas and be like, whenever people say Colorado wedding photographer, they probably mean that they're trying to find someone in photographs, mountain weddings, right?
Because if not, they're going to say. Denver, Boulder or what other, whatever, other city or
Nina: whatever, and everyone in Colorado travels all over the state. you know, I think that's honestly helped me get that. I'm a notch trying to rank for all of the destination things. I would love to only shoot things that are within two hours from home, and that gives me a much more focused area to try to get traffic for too.
but what's interesting about the Estes park venue one is, I had a. One of those old shitty 300 word blog posts for a venue in Estes park. And I noticed after I held, built out my Boulder wedding menu guide that that individual venue post Anastas was getting some search traffic for us to spark wedding venues.
And so I saw how high the impressions were for that estos park wedding venue search. And I saw that there was very little competition for that, and that's why I built that guide. you know, cause I realized if like if if a single venue posts that's not even optimized or good quality or anything is showing up at all for the search, then you know, I can come in with a solid guide and actually dominate it.
Corey: That is such gold. I mean, for people listening who are often asking us questions like, what can I do regularly to improve my SEO? What should I be doing every week, every month? That's one of the biggest things. Looking at your search console and looking for. Opportunities, right? So you're looking for things that are already ranking, but maybe they're ranking for some specific term that that post doesn't quite fit and you can create a new post or you can modify the existing post.
These opportunities will present themselves. It's funny cause I was actually thinking, whenever you mentioned the sunrise amphitheater, and again, when you were talking about that. I was thinking about the venue that, my wife and I use when we got married. It's actually kind of similar to the sunrise amphitheater.
It's like a mountain side, you know, covered and you with a view. And for some reason there's like no information. It's a YMCA camp, but like you have their official site, but you couldn't find any guides to it anywhere other than that. And I was looking one day in. Either search console or I was looking in dress for SEMrush or something, and I saw that the name of this venue is, it's actually called pretty place.
Nina: really, that's tricky to optimize for. Yes.
Corey: But, the YMCA camp Greenville, or pretty place to wait, like Sims chapel, whatever. What are the names for it had like. 16 or 1800 searches per month, and then the tool was saying the difficulty level was like three or something. Essentially no one was optimizing for it.
It got crazy amounts of search traffic, and I was like, I need to optimize for this. But I think I found that at like the end of my photography stuff. So I never really created one. But those opportunities are still out there.
Nina: Yeah. Well, and it's, it's the easiest way for like, you know, if you look back five years ago, like if you wanted to shoot at like a high end fancy venue and you hadn't shopped there before, you were kind of like, just like out of lock on that.
Unless, you know, you happen to get lucky and you finally get a booking and then you can blog it and then you can optimize it and then maybe you can get more bookings. But I don't know. I'm not a very patient person. I don't like sitting around waiting for things to happen without taking control over it.
And so if there's a venue I want to shoot at, I mean, I'll use another example now where, you know, because of this pandemic searches for, locations and micro weddings and intimate weddings and stuff like that, or skyrocketing here in Colorado, and I'm sure everywhere else. I do. And so I started this past week where I've been reaching out to all of the venues that I really love, where they have beautiful outdoor ceremony sites.
many of these are like luxury mountain ranches, and you know, places where you can have accommodations in the same place as the venue. And just asking them. You know, are you offering anything for couples who want maybe just 15 people? Even if you're used to hosting 200 person weddings, would you be able to do like a two hour weekday rental if couples are also staying on property and stuff like that.
And I'm really excited to put that together into a page on just, you know, best venues for your Colorado micro wedding or whatever that ends up being. because. Again, that is something people are searching for. Now. There is very little info on it. These venues don't even have that info on their own websites because they move so much slower when it comes to updating things.
And I guarantee that many of them haven't even thought about like, Oh shit, we should be doing a low payments now. so, so yeah, I mean it's, it's, it's taking the SEO offline. It's thinking about what in-person relationships can you create off of this. And, you know, by reaching out to these venues.
Suddenly if they now have couples coming to them looking for an elopement, I will be the photographer. They think about, because I already offered to help them get more business in a year where they're probably suffering a little bit.
Corey: Yeah, yeah. That's awesome. It's
Nina: huge. So yeah, I
Corey: just looked up Estes park wedding venues in age refs to see what they think for search volume.
And they, they estimate like 500 searches per month. Your search console says it's like. Somewhere around four to 5,000 per month.
Nina: It's incredible. It I get like a hundred of those clicks a month. Oh, totally. Yeah. Yeah. More than that. Yep.
Corey: Yep. It's such a good little find.
Nina: Yup. but yeah, and I mean that's, I think it's fun too, cause you can always keep growing it.
But I think focusing on the market that you're most interested in booking in first makes the most sense. cause you know, I'm now looking at like, how do I get in on Denver and other places. But Boulder was such an easy one for me to start with because all of the venues are within half an hour drive from home.
So it wasn't that much work to go out and actually photograph them. And I mean, now is a great time to be asking venues of, Hey, you're empty anyway. Right. Can I please just show up and take some photos and give them to you after and help promote you? And it gives you like
Corey: something to share on social media.
Like I haven't taken a photo professionally for months, so,
Nina: Oh yeah, yeah. Yup. That's cool.
Corey: so what kind of. Cleanse. Do you have next, we've kind of talked about a couple of things here, like the, you know, micro weddings, but as far as optimizing for venues and locations, do you have any big plans for like a next attack or are you going to modify some of the stuff that you have now or are you trying to still build out.
Like pages for individual venues. What's next on your list as far as this goes?
Nina: Yeah, so, what I've seen is that, you know, using my guide to the fracking mountain national park is an example. when I first published that guide like a year and a half ago, it was the only thing that really ranked, that had like all of the different locations listed out and that type of content.
And I was. You know, number three behind the two official national park service websites for about a year. And of course now there's like 50 other people who have pretty much written the exact same blog post asked me. so, you know, now the goal is much more focused on like, how can I optimize these posts and stay ahead of what other people are doing, which, you know, will always be a thing.
But like. I don't know. I feel like a lot of people are really worried about like, Oh, but what if I write this post now? And other people copy it? And I'm like, well, it doesn't matter. You'd have to keep improving because if you don't do anything, you're definitely getting left behind. So, you know, you might as well do your best now and then keep changing it in the future when you need to.
but yeah, so a big one for me is, you know, featured snippets, trying to steal some more of those. And, Just overall building out the posts where, you know, because of search console, I have all the, like this post might show up for this one keyword, but it's not actually optimized for that. So trying to build in a lot more of those to hit, you know, different things people are actually looking for.
so yeah, improving the posts that I already have and trying to keep those on top is big. and then. I definitely have different locations. I want to build out venue guides for and location guides. but yeah, and then subtopics like the micro weddings and a little bit of everything I have, like I have like a month left until my wedding season really takes off and I have all of the elopements again.
So I'm like, how much writing can I get done in a month now? Seriously.
Corey: You mentioned featured snippets. Do you have a favorite tool for tracking which features sentence you have or looking for opportunities.
Nina: Yeah. So I, I use SEM rush. I ended up, paying for the paid plan. And it's funny cause I always, like every month I put it on my to do list for a month later, it's like, Ooh, cancel this, you know, before next month.
And I'm like, no, this is so valuable. I just had for longer. Yeah. But
Corey: I did the same with DHS when I first signed up for that. I was like, I'm going to do this for one month.
Nina: But if you
Corey: addicted to that information and all of the opportunity there.
Nina: Well and like a hundred bucks a month overall for a marketing plan that drives like 80% of my profits, like you can to beat that.
So, so I'm okay with continuous. Yeah. But yeah, and I, I mean, when I had my last, one on one with Corey a week or two ago, you know, we were looking at some of the terms were like, I love how SCM rush lets you see if like, what keywords on my already ranking front page for, and do I have a featured snippet for that or does someone else.
you know, and being able to actually just pull that really easily out of the data instead of trying to search for everything yourself, it's so much easier,
Corey: so much more efficient. We need to do tutorial on that, Dylan. Yeah, that's a good, good, good one.
Corey: I have a couple of quick thoughts just based on some of the last things that you were saying.
one of them, I mean, you've kind of already touched on it there with featured snippets.
you're saying, you know, you want to, we're not necessarily copying you. You will have people who directly copy you, like they'll just basically change the sentences a little bit. And it's the exact same thing.
Nina: I've had that too, where like for one, I had a blog post called six reasons. You should a lope on a weekday, and I wrote that post back in 2018 and then one of the other local photographers here wrote a post called seven reasons you should have local on a weekday and.
I swear to God, there's no way she was not reading my post while writing hers cause it's the exact same reasons in the same order. but you know, I just updated my post to make it eight reasons and then we'll see if she embraces it to nine. So
Corey: that's funny. But yeah, I think one of the things you can do.
Is really pay attention to featured snippets, not only because you want to win those featured snippets, but also I think it's a really good hint into how Google is prioritizing content, how they're digesting content, how they're understanding the intent behind specific types of content, and then applying it back to the query.
Dylan and I were doing this the other day with. we're kind of doing a little side experiment on dominating a specific search for a specific term. And we were looking back at it and we have a guide that's ranking really well for that term organically, but it's never had the featured snippet. And the featured snippet has always followed a relatively specific pattern.
And what we're realizing is Google believes that the main intent behind this search follows that pattern. And our guide doesn't really fit it. And so we're thinking, how do we re. Right this so that it really fits the intent that Google is expecting and probably is the intent that users are having for the search.
So paying attention there. Also, one of the big things that I think we never talk about this, Dylan, how we should is a voice search. There's so much happening with voice search. I mean, I pay attention to my kids. I have a seven year old, a six year old and a almost four year old, and they. Use technology way better than I could imagine as when I was a kid.
Right. And they're doing things like if they want to search, like I'll have them. Asking me to do something. And I was like, I don't know how to find that. And they'll say, just search for blah, blah, blah. And I'll be like, wait, wait, wait. Did my kid just teach me how to use a search engine or what? This is crazy.
But anyway, they use, they typically use voice search because they don't know how to spell yet. That will kind of a little bit the seven year old. Right. But the idea is they'll just like hold down the button on the remote or they'll talk to Google or like Google home mini or they'll on their tablets, they can like hit the search bar and then press the button to use the microphone.
All of the searches they do are voice.
Nina: Right. That's what I do. Automobile too. Yeah. I can't remember the last time I typed in a search when I can just talk. Yeah, exactly.
Corey: But a lot of that is going to come back with, an answer. And the answer is typically generated from a featured snippet. So, you know, generally just thinking through, like if someone were searching for this on the go, driving, whatever, something else they're doing, they use the voice search.
How would I. Relate the information to them in a way that kind of gives them what they're looking for right now, but also tells them there's more on my page. That's something that I think we've got to be thinking more through as search evolves into more voice-based and screenless results and things like that.
and then go ahead.
Nina: I think overall on that too, like the wedding specifically market is so different from what Google as a whole sees of the web. That because people who are looking for, whether it's a wedding venue or a photographer or you know, any of these related things are really doing research.
They're opening multiple tabs. They're looking at a lot of different options. And so, I dunno, I don't worry about like if someone's searching, you know, how to elope in Colorado, even if they get a featured snippet up top saying that, you know, you just need a $30 marriage license and you can do it yourself.
That's not the full answer they're looking for. They want to read about the whole process. so yeah, like I, I don't know if I should be more worried about, you know, getting people off the featured snippet and onto the website itself, but I think like that's overall what people are looking for anyway.
Corey: Yeah. I think it's really tricky. We're still trying to figure out this, this as well, because sometimes we'll find that organic position number one outperforms the featured snippet and like cases, like what you just mentioned, maybe Google gives an answer, but it's not really what they were looking for, but I'm just thinking like what if you have.
The answer that Google wants and it leads to what they're looking for. I mean, there's just, you gotta really think through how all this works, what the search experience is like from start to finish. I think it's just evolving right now and it's kind of in this weird adolescent stage where like Google gets it right sometimes and.
Google gets it wrong sometimes, and I think they'll continue to get better and better at getting it right more consistently.
Nina: Yeah. Well, and I have the theory too on, with the late last algorithm change here and why my elopement guide suddenly jumped up so much is because when I look at the competition for those search terms, there are a lot of posts that are, you know, quality and considered cornerstone and stuff like that, but they only cover.
One section of how to elope. You know, they might talk about like, what is an elopement, or they might talk about best places to open Colorado, or the technicalities of how to get your marriage license. but my guide covers every single portion of that. and I think with, you know. Good headings and all of that good formatting for us.
Google understands that like, Oh, they are probably looking for more than just this one featured snippets thing. If we send them here, they're going to spend 20 minutes actually reading this whole thing. for sure. Oh, I don't know. Just the dairy.
Corey: Yeah. I just want to break down one other thing. We've already really kind of covered it, but I'm also kind of just like talking out the things I'm learning right now, or things that I'm thinking through.
and that one of those is like, we have so many people who are asking us how to rank for these random different areas or locations, or they want to be a destination wedding photographer. And I think a couple of things that you can learn. Hear from Nina, Nina's not trying to be a destination wedding photographer per se, but, and this like sounds kind of crazy to some people, but I think one of the things you can do if you want to be a destination wedding photographer is pick a destination and move there.
Like the fact that you live in Boulder and like close to all of these amazing venues in the mountains in Colorado. If you want to do that kind of thing and you live there, you have a significant advantage with
Nina: Google. Don't tell people to move to Colorado though.
Corey: Pick something else.
Nina: It's, it's really expensive here.
no, but I mean, I definitely think that's true. Cause like if, if Google has the choice when someone's searching for Colorado local mentor, Colorado elopement photographer and. I mean, I'll, I'll use Dylan as an example. Again, here you've got a solid website that ranks really high for a lot of things you rank for.
You know, you have some idea in places that you don't live too, but even if you built a guide on Colorado, I don't think you would outrank me for it because Google knows I live here, and every single piece of content on my website is related to Colorado, and yours is not, you know, and I think that.
Overall health of the website and overall topic of the website. Everything is based on Colorado for me. So of course I would also rank higher for search terms related to Colorado. If I suddenly tried to put together a guide for, you know, eloping at month, like somewhere in the Pacific Northwest, I wouldn't stand a chance of drinking at that because I have nothing else that relates to that.
and I think that's the uphill battle for anyone who's like, well, you know, I live in. I don't know, Nebraska and I have no interest in shooting at home and I just want to travel. You're going to be fighting so much harder for getting rankings. Then the local photographers will completely,
Corey: but I do think, and by the way, Dylan, you kind of did the same thing like you moved from.
From Idaho to the Pacific Northwest for sure. Some of that was the same motivation, but Oh, completely. I mean, I, I tried ranking from Boise for major terms elsewhere around the country and just completely failed and quickly realized that at the very least, I would have to have like a fake business in Portland or Seattle or somewhere.
and maybe not actually live at that address, but I knew that I had to have my business based there for Google. And really for. The actual clients, like people want that expertise. If they're coming to Colorado, they want to know that you are an expert on that and they don't want to be like, Oh yeah, you're from Ohio, but you want to shoot here, so I'll take this risk.
Corey: seen so many of the posts on Facebook where they're like looking for recommendations and then like put in like all caps, bold must actually be in
Nina: whatever. And then you'll, and then you'll still get 150 comments from people who don't live there. But yeah, no, but, but I think, again, with a user intent though, off of, like.
What'd you say about positioning yourself as the local expert? and that is something that I've directly had so many couples tell me in the first email they send off of my contact form is only shared. Your website was helpful for us. Like we knew, kind of knew we wanted to open Colorado, but we had no idea what to do.
You have given us a process. We now know that we need to open a week. Say we know why we should avoid certain areas cause they're too busy. Like, I've, my website has already done all of that prep work for me. So they're also just better, easier clients to work with when they do come in. you know, instead of like, Hey, we want to do a Saturday in July in Rocky mountain, I'm like, no, you really don't.
Corey: that was one of the biggest gains I had from my guide as well, where. I no longer have to talk about timelines with people. I can just be like, you've already read this or here if you haven't checked this out.
Nina: Exactly. yeah. No, and it's, it's so helpful to just get to skip ahead on the process of that.
But, but yeah, I mean there's, I worked with Rachel Graman, a copywriter, about a year ago now. And one of the things she told me was like, cut the travel page off of your website cause you're not even interested in traveling. So why is it in your menu. Focus on local resources, and don't be afraid to position yourself as the expert on this.
And probably the single best piece of business advice I've ever been given because it's turned into so much more actual business that fits exactly what I want to do.
Corey: Yeah, it's amazing. And by the way, I do think that there's room to write guides for areas that you made know very well, but you don't live there.
It is possible. Like for example, I could write a guide to. Getting married in Charleston or loping in Charleston because I've been there dozens, if not hundreds of times. It's two hours away from me, but that's still like close enough. But even like you said, Dylan's got one for so many for pick sir.
Places where you've been multiple times, and again, it's going to depend on the landscape, not like the geographical landscape, but like looking to see what the competition is like. There are still dozens, if not hundreds of like untapped. Locations and keywords that people are searching for all the time, that you could create some sort of resource around and be able to rank for that.
I think it's possible, but I do believe that you're still always, like Nina said, you're fighting an uphill battle. If you've got someone who's local who's also doing a good job of that, what you'll find is that a lot of times the locals are lazy. So there they rank there because of their address and because of their establishment, but they won't.
Right. Local content. And so that's why you see a lot of these like outsiders ranking for this kind of thing because they have to put in the effort hustle to get it, whereas the local stone, but if you're local and you can do the hustle too, it's like. It's over. Game over. Yeah.
Nina: Well, and I, I've seen for myself too, like I've actually taken down these posts now after deciding that I didn't want to do destination stuff, but I had a front page posts for both Ireland and Norway for Dustin destination and elopements, you know, because they were.
Places. I had been plenty enough times. I mean, I'm from Norway and, been to Ireland a couple of times and you know, those would rank because again, people hadn't already put out quality content for it. but it's kind of crazy that like, even if I'm from Norway and the, yes, that's mentioned on my website and I have some signals for it, in addition to having photos that were actually taken in real locations in our way.
I should not, as a Colorado wedding photographer, be able to outrank the people who live and work in our way. you know, like that's just crazy to me and shows like they haven't put in the effort, so
Corey: for sure.
Nina: Yeah. I,
Corey: I have, I saw your Ireland post today and I think I saw that, that you're ranking in your search console.
Nina: Yeah. The post itself has gone now. I actually took it down, so
Corey: nice. I might take my done too. I, I did one at a workshop in October and it's like first page for. Like Ireland elopement guide like that should have happen.
Nina: No. And that's what I saw too. Cause you went to second workshop, right? Yeah. Cause I was there the year before and it was great because when I started ranking for Ireland things, you know, I actually got like I'd say maybe 10 inquiries for actual Firelands elopements in the time I had that post up.
But they were never a times where I would have been able to travel there anyway. But then it was really nice to be able to send those referrals to friends I met who actually lived there. And they're like, wait, how is this Colorado photographer sending me referrals for Ireland? But yeah.
Corey: Do you have any specific, Pinterest strategies
Nina: that have worked well for you?
Corey: not to get into another podcast episode for sure. For sure.
Nina: No, but, but I think overall, you know, for any of the posts that are most driving traffic to my website, those are also the ones I've been focusing on for Pinterest. because, you know, people use it as another search engine. but I would say, you know.
Big, beautiful vertical photos with actual caption overlay, like use Canva or something to create specific Pinterest graphics. those definitely drive a decent amount of traffic too. and you know, Pinterest is a little tricky on some things where. Like, I have one blog post from like a wedding I shot in Aspen where the decorations were beautiful.
And so I get a lot of clicks from that post to my website, but they all bounce back because they're not looking for someone in Colorado. They were just seeing what the string lights look like, you know? And, But yeah, the posts that are doing really well, there is like my ultimate guide to Rocky mountain national park or best months to open Colorado.
you know, how to plan things.
Corey: Pinterest ads to those particular guides.
Nina: I have actually, not enough to say that I have any conclusive evidence of what works for not. but you know, when I have a post like Rocky mountain that already drives that much traffic and I know people are searching for it on Pinterest, I figured it's worth, you know, Hey, I can.
Throw up 20 bucks and just see, and it drives some traffic. But, but yeah, I think too, with the intent, right? Like people on Pinterest are not usually at the stage where they're ready to actually contact someone. Like they're gathering inspiration. They're thinking about, you know, who I might want to elope, or what could that look like?
What differences. Am I even interested in? and so it's a much earlier part of the process, but you also wants to get in front of people who are that early on in the planning stages.
Corey: because I just thought of one other question there. Are you doing anything else to drive traffic outside of just getting organic traffic to, especially these guides?
Nina: No, I should be doing more. I mean, I, I've done some, Facebook ads for pretty much all of them. Just, especially, I love doing Facebook ads early on after publishing some content just to start driving traffic on there and see of, you know, do I actually get inquiries off of this or not? And, Just, yeah. Kind of get a feel for if it's successful enough that I should be promoting it further. I think Facebook ads are such a cheap, easy way to test content like that. And, and yeah, I've been looking into doing more Google ads to try to, you know, see if like, does this title work better than the other one?
You know, what actually makes people click through on something? but. It's one of those many things on the list of like, this takes too long to set up and so it hasn't gotten done yet. For sure. That's
Corey: an interesting thought too. Like just even if you did something like that before you wrote, you know, two three, 5,000 word guide or whatever, like maybe run Facebook ads to something that's even a much smaller, like you write a hundred words, put up a page, run Facebook ads to it, and see does this get clicks?
Are people interested in this topic? Because I mean, like you said in the very beginning. Now we live by the 80 20 rule, the creative principle, where 80% of your results are going to come from 20% of your efforts. So it maybe that will be an interesting way to test. Is this even worth writing when I've only got time to do a certain amount.
And then narrow down my list of a hundred ideas to 10 great ideas by running some ads. That's pretty interesting
Nina: thought. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, for me, like when it comes to prioritizing concentrate, cause like my list of blog posts I would like to write is way longer than the list of stuff I will actually ever get published.
And, I mean, the main one I'm using is, just impressions and search console and see of, you know, am I already anywhere even close to this? Like would I be able to rank for it? And then the combination of using SEM rush to see if, like, does this come with featured snippets? Like who else is already ranking for it?
You know, what can I do to actually show up there? But yeah, I mean, I th I think that's what, I don't know. I think skipping even further back behind that though, like people are writing blog posts to drive traffic to their website, but I think it's important to remember like, what's your actual goal with that traffic?
Like, what do you want people to do when they get on there? You know, one thing I've seen a lot, since your course came out and you have the example of best places to elope. Everyone is writing that blog post now, but does ranking for something halfway across the world actually mean you're going to get bookings there?
you know, are you. Have you ever shopped there? Do you look like enough of an expert in your posts that people would trust you to go to these places? And I think that's where a lot of people are focusing on the wrong things with like look at your own local environment. What can you do that would actually turn into real bookings?
That real money, you know, and not just traffic. cause for me like Boulder, Wendy's wedding venues, of course that's not as sexy as ranking for Iceland elopement or whatever. But I can shoot 40 Boulder weddings a year and I can shoot one international destination. So I know which one I care more about having actual traffic for,
Corey: Yeah. I think there's, you know, there's multiple levels of. Goals for websites, web pages, traffic versus like bookings. But I think what you're saying is so key. And actually I made a post in the course group a month or two ago where I was like, I'm just sitting here brainstorming, trying to think through, topics for wedding photographers in their specific city, like locally relevant topics that could drive traffic from an audience that is very likely to hire you.
And I mean, I came up with. 10 or 15 different ideas. Just like right off the bat, we sat there for five minutes and thought of these ideas and my thought is if I were a current working wedding photographer, I would exhaust that list before I would move on to the others. Probably, unless I just saw some like crazy low hanging fruit, like when Dylan did that one about where too low or.
Like the wedding dresses posts that he has or something like that. The main reason for that is because the volume was insane and the competition was like almost nonexistent. Yeah. And so it's like the point of that kind of traffic is not always bookings, but often it's links, right? So we know we want to get exposure through more traffic, and then hopefully that exposure leads to.
so when using a photo in crediting or someone linking to that guide as a, as an authoritative resource, sometimes they even get like Wikipedia citations and things like that. So in fact, they'll, it has one like that. Like, you know, we're just like, the whole point of the post was citations from other people who were writing about the topic or.
Nina: But he knew what the goal was before writing that post that that's the outcome you were looking for. And I think that's what people are losing is you have to know why you're writing the post. Is it backlinks? Is it local bookings? Is it, you know, what's the goal with this? Cause if not like, I mean, if you're in a location photographer who has no interest in ever shooting at a venue, why would you waste time building a page about venues?
You know, like, yes, it might drive traffic. But if you're not going to do anything with that traffic, there are better ways to spend your time and better pieces of content to create.
Corey: Absolutely. Yep. Love it. Well, I think it's time to start wrapping this up. Nina, do you have any other pieces of partying?
Wisdom? You've already given us so much, but any other thoughts you want to give people? Anything you want people to check out or anything else.
Nina: No, I mean, I think remembering that this is a long game, cause like, you know, I started working on my Boulder venue guide in, like January last year is when I started reaching out to venues.
And it took me about a month to just to even do the initial research of finding out what all the venues was and contacting them and everything. And then it took me forever. February through June last year to just go out and actually take photos of all of these menus and build out the page. And you know, I published the page before I was ready, like ready and quotation marks.
You know, I've kept adding to it as I go along, but first couple of months, you know, it wasn't driving much traffic and it's only now in the past month. And I'm finally, you know, number one for both Boulder and us to spark wedding venues ahead of the knot and wedding wire that took over a year worth of work.
And I think. It seems like SEO is this magic thing where you can just kind of trick the system and then it's like, Oh, well if I just throw it together, a fast post on this, you know, I'll just magically rank. And it's not a, it takes a lot more work than that, but it's also so beneficial. Cause I mean, I see, You're asking earlier about just like how this has actually paid off, and I mean, in the last 90 days, which is pretty much just the time we've all been dealing with the pandemic, you know, it's not a normal booking environments at all. I've gotten 55 leads and six bookings off of Google, and that would not have happened without first spending three years building up the site.
You know, like once those inquiries start rolling in, you'll get so addicted to like, Oh my gosh, this is actually working. I want to put in more work now. But you have to also be prepared for us to take time.
Corey: Yeah. Yup. It's so hard like that, that initial two to three year period of working on something you believe in without really seeing the results is where most people give up.
Yeah. Most people give up like month
Nina: three to six, but yeah, I mean, I see people post, I see people posting in your group all the time with like, Hey, you know, I started the course three weeks ago. When am I going to see results? And I'm like, not for awhile, but. I dunno. I think people have to find the joy of just like doing this work for itself too.
Cause like, or you know, outsource it. If you pay to doing anything on your website, find someone you can pay to do this for you. you know, cause there are plenty of people out there who can do well-researched quality content, who probably knows more about SEO than you. Anyway. But if you get to the point where like this is fun, you know, cause for me like, because the websites have always been in the background of any different type of business, I've had like, I mean, writing blog posts and doing like keyword research and stuff like that.
Like that's what I'm doing late at night when I'm watching TV and just want to do something fun on my computer. And I'm not saying that that's normal, but it works. What do you mean it's not
Nina: Well, I know, I know you're the wrong target to say it's not normal, but. but yeah, no, I mean, this is supposed to be fun too, right?
Like I, I just, I don't know if I play too many video games or what it is, but it feels like you're just constantly trying to level up and, you know, build up enough experience points to get the next upgrade and yeah, I think when you kind of gamified like that, it can be a lot of fun, even if it's confusing to get started.
Corey: I think that's why we're still in it as well. And I've had so many friends say the same where they, they didn't believe in SEO and now they're like, this is like a fun game in a way.
Nina: We got you. Got you hooked. Exactly. Awesome.
Corey: Thank you so much for talking to us this morning.
Nina: It's been incredible. Super excited to share
Yeah. Yeah. Well, we'll get this published and you can check it out at dot com slash podcast episode 11 and yeah, we'll have some links in the show notes. Thanks again for being here. We'll talk to you later.
Nina: Awesome. Bye.
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